Growing A Jiu Jitsu Gym with Guest Michael Spyrou

Most jiu-jitsu academies aren’t struggling because the coaching is bad. They’re struggling because the business side is running on hope, slow replies, and a messy spreadsheet. I sat down with Michael Spyrou, a brown belt and the creator of the Pack The Mat system, to talk about what actually drives predictable enrollment in a martial arts school without sacrificing the culture that makes people stay.

 Michael shares how running Meta ads brought in a surge of interest, but without a clear sales funnel and lead management process, those prospects slipped away. From Lean Six Sigma principles to “speed to lead,” we break down how to remove waste from your follow-up, reduce no-shows with better appointment reminders, and improve your conversion rate before you spend another dollar on advertising.

 If you’re a gym owner, coach, or manager who wants a sustainable system for martial arts school marketing, this one is built for you.

If this helps, subscribe, share it with a gym owner who needs it, and leave a review so more people can find the show. What’s the biggest thing blocking your academy’s growth right now?

Check out Michael's revolutionary lead management system visit https://morestudentslesswork.com/home 

To connect with Michael directly connect with him on Instagram @itsmichaelspyrou

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Check out Rubber Bones at the website link in the show notes, and remember to use the discount code Caffeinated10 when ordering. 

Transcript

Welcome And Why Growth Matters

Joe Motes (Host) 0:00

And welcome everyone again to another episode of Caffeinated Jiu Jitsu. For those of you who are listening for the first time, I am your host, Joe Motes, and I'm super excited for today's episode. And the reason for that is because we're talking about a topic my guest and I that I don't think a lot of podcasts in the jiu-jitsu space talk about. Um, and that is how how to grow your academy in your school, some best practices on how to do that, and even some tools that you can use to do that. My guest today is Michael Spiral. Did I have to Spiro? See, I told you, dude. I told you I was gonna mess that up. It's all right. And it was like three seconds ago. It's okay. Michael is a Michael's a leading authority on automated growth systems. And I couldn't think of a better person to have on to talk about this topic. And these growth systems are specific for martial arts school. He's helped dozens of schools already across the U.S. increase their yearly revenue revenue using his pack the mat system. And I'm excited to learn more about that. Michael, you and I have connected uh early on to talk about this and kind of I I've got the pleasure to go through a demo. But Michael, welcome, welcome to the show, man.

Speaker 1:24

Thanks, Joe, for having me. Like I'm glad we finally got to do this. I know it's been a long time coming, but I'm really happy to be on the show.

Joe Motes (Host) 1:32

I'm I'm excited, man. And uh now you're brown belt, right? Correct. Okay, I just want to make sure I didn't miss any any promotions that may have come up since we started talking. I know we've been talking for a while, man. No, you're good. Yeah, usually when I talk to some of my friends who are brown belts, or I haven't talked to them in a while, like it'll be a few months, and then all of a sudden, oh, I got my black belt. I'm like, what? What'd I miss, man?

Michael Spyrou 1:55

That's crazy. That's fine. No, I think I still got some time, so we're good on that.

Joe Motes (Host) 2:00

Awesome, awesome. Well, uh excited to have the conversation today. Uh,

Michael’s Jiu Jitsu Origin Story

Joe Motes (Host) 2:05

but let's start kind of with the origin story, man. Um I was excited, you know, when we connected, we shared a little bit of each other's. But for the listeners, uh, you know, how did you first come into jujitsu and are there other martial arts that you do? Um, just kind of yeah, share with us that.

Michael Spyrou 2:22

Yeah, so I always grew up playing team sports. I had never really done anything like wrestling or jujitsu. I did a little bit, uh I should say wrestling in like middle school, but there wasn't much love for it. And like I said, everything else was very team-focused sports. And I started training jujitsu in 2016. So I was like a senior in high school, 17 years old, going on 18. And it was actually my dad who brought me into the room because he had been training, um, he had his black belt in judo a long time ago. And at this point in his jujitsu career, I think he was a purple belt. And he's been trying to get me and my brother down for years and years. And then, you know, he had my brother come in like maybe eight months before I started, and then he finally got me on the mats. And when I came down to the gym, it was like a Sunday morning noge. So I didn't know anybody's ranks, I didn't know anything, uh, you know, any expectations were out the I had no nothing planned in my head. It was just, let's see what this is about. So my first round was with my dad, and he just kind of spent it explaining some things to me, let me do the whole, you know, white belt thing. Um, at the end of five minutes, the first round ends, and he he points to this guy on the mat and he says, You should go uh roll with it. He's pretty good. And I look over at this guy, and he's this older gentleman. He's got a knee brace on, he doesn't have hair, salt, pepper goatee, just shorts and a t-shirt. And I'm thinking, man, like I'm gonna smoke this guy. Like, I really thought I was gonna dismantle this guy in every sense of the word. And as I'm walking over, um, you know, I introduce myself and he's like, Oh, you're Alex's kid. It's so nice to meet you. Like, he's just so polite and welcoming. And I had another thought, and I was like, well, maybe I'll take it easy on this guy at first because he's pretty nice. I don't want to hurt his feelings. Um, but that was uh as far from the truth as I could have been, because when that round starts, he probably summed me three to four times a minute for that five-minute round. And he was barely moving, too. It was like so wild to me how I would just go across the mat or hit my back hard and get armpared or something. Like I had no idea what was happening. And at the end of that round, that's when I remember sitting there thinking, like, all right, I guess there's something to this. I can't really go home and get say I got beat up by an old man and not come back. So that's kind of the story from there. So I just I started and never stopped.

Joe Motes (Host) 4:54

Yeah, it's uh man, there's so many of us that have those those humbling stories, right? And and I started later. I man, it would have been really cool if I was able to start in my late teens, early 20s, because I was I felt like I was in pretty good shape. I was in the military, I was a paratrooper, I looked like I was in shape at least. Um but yeah, I it's crazy. I I I see people like that even now, you know, several years into my journey, I'm thinking, okay, you know, it's gonna be an okay. Like when I go visit somewhere, I'm like, yeah, they're you know, they're a purple belt, but uh, you know, they got some age on them. This should be a pretty even kill match. Yeah, right. Trying to mash it up in your head with that MI math, you know. And it's not, it it never is. So no, thanks for uh thanks for sharing that. Uh and and Michael, you're located where? You're you're you're training in um out of Freedom Jiu Jitsu, Long Island, New York. Yeah, Long Island. That's right. Uh I wouldn't say Manhattan for some reason, but um, thank you. How long have you been training there? Have you is that where you started?

Speaker 6:01

So I started at this gym called Vamos, and the owner of Freedom, Steve Kalushin, was a brown ball at the time. He got his blackout, I think maybe six months after I started. And then 2018, he started his own gym, um, Freedom, and that's when I went with him. So I've been under him since the start. He's known me since uh you know my teen years. Um, but I haven't really been anywhere else. So I guess that's a a good thing, right?

Joe Motes (Host) 6:28

Yeah, no, it's great. I uh I'm I'm full circle back to where I started, and it's it's it's a it's a good feeling, kind of like to have that home kind of uh gym. I hope I I do not want to move again. I've had to move twice now because of of work or what have you. But no, uh, you know, uh so uh so much of what we're gonna talk about today is is if we have a core theme, it's like problem solving. Uh before we get into problem solving for academies and things like that, what has jujitsu taught you about problem solving?

Speaker 7:02

I can't take credit for the problem.

Joe Motes (Host) 7:03

I kind of the way you think.

Speaker 7:04

Yeah, yeah. No, I mean I I can't take credit for this quote. It was uh a friend of mine who said it, but he said um jujitsu was the the best tool for self-improvement. And I I really love that because I remember, you know, having that experience the first time on the mat, right? And um, when I look back on it and I think about my own jujitsu journey, you know, and how it helped shape me into this person I am today. And it and really it's it's uh you know, it kind of is my life, you know. I train it every day, I I coached it at Freedom Now, and it's how I make my living, you know, that I can't get away from it. So um, but when I look back and and think about all that, and I think about what jiu-jitsu is for me, it's it's a uh process that that drives results, right? And you know, if you want real growth, you need a real process. So for me, uh the growth that I wanted was internal. I didn't really know that at 17, but through the years as I've experienced the you know, the magical effects of jujitsu, right? More confidence and just the way you approach life and look at things and dissect things, um, you know, I I recognize that the jujitsu was the process for you know my becoming. And um, you know, that's just kind of how I approach all my like every aspect of life now. It's there's so

Culture Over Name Recognition

Speaker 8:25

many parallels to it.

Joe Motes (Host) 8:27

Yeah, yeah. Getting us into kind of some of the the topics here. What what do you think gym owners um maybe misunderstand the most when they're starting an academy, right? Because I look, I'm I'm just a blue belt, I've only been doing this for like three or four years, right? Um I don't know some of the high-level belt stresses that that people go through, but I would imagine that there's some things that people underestimate when they're passionate about starting a gym, which most people are have zero business knowledge or sense.

Speaker 9:02

Yeah, I think, you know, in today's day and age that the uh barrier to entry is is I guess I don't want to say low asn't a bad thing, but I mean, on Long Island, there is so many schools. Like there's like, I'm not even kidding, there's like three other schools on the same road as us here. And it's a really growing sport, which is awesome. But I think people think that because they're starting it, like you know, they're maybe have like a misconception of how big their name is gonna carry weight in the community. And like the truth is, like, unless you're like some world-class competitor that actually has a name is gonna pull people from other gyms, any hobbyist looking to start doesn't know you, and that it doesn't really mean anything to them. So, you know, it's you need to really have um at the core core thing is is a really good culture because at the end of the day, that's what everybody is gonna connect to. You know, it doesn't matter you know your philosophy on teaching or how you teach, it's do you like the people you're in the room with and do you like training with them? And as long as you can build that, you're gonna have a successful business. But I think a lot of people get into it thinking like, oh, I'm gonna teach uh in like the new ecological way, or I won all my local tournaments, so now like I have this name and I could go out and start a school, and it's like, you know, it's not really the case. You know, it's there's a lot of schools out there. You really need to give somebody a community to connect to if you want to be successful um long term in this industry, I think.

Joe Motes (Host) 10:41

Yeah, I don't think it's like field of dreams, right? Build it and they will come. It's it's not like that. I mean, jujitsu is growing and it's hot, it's it's sexy, it's awesome. And it there is an aspect of just opening doors and you'll get some members, but not sure probably not to the the tune of you're gonna pay all your bills and have a profit. Right. Yeah. By just so, I mean, there's gonna have

Lean Six Sigma In Plain English

Joe Motes (Host) 11:05

to be work, right?

Speaker 11:06

Absolutely.

Joe Motes (Host) 11:07

Um, so you you have um lean six sigma background, right? You you have supply chain and and process improvement. And, you know, for for those listeners who may not know what that is, it's at least from my understanding, uh, it's all about you know, step-by-step improving processes through the lean six sigma uh model or what have you. But question is, uh, you know, having uh, you know, actual education and uh certifications, does that help you kind of uh better diagnose, you think, uh gym problems? And also even in building uh the pack the mat system, which we'll talk about a little bit later as well.

Speaker 11:46

Yeah, I think I it it really helped um a lot of it came into play when I was building the actual system itself, especially the lean part. So um your definition was correct. I'm just gonna expand on it now.

Joe Motes (Host) 12:00

So the Yeah, please do, because I don't have one.

Speaker 12:03

Yeah, you're good, you're good. Um so Six Sigma is referring to like a bell curve. So it really came about in Toyota in their car production, like back in when they start, like the 50s, right after World War II. And it's why they're actually such a great reliable car company because when you look at a bell curve, right, the center is your average, and then you go out one standard deviation, two, three, four. So Toyota is going out six standard deviations in terms of their part failure. So that's like at 99.99 repeating, you know, um, condition. That's why nothing ever breaks on their cars. So that's more like you know, engineering. The lean part is getting rid of waste and making things as efficient as possible. So when you put those two things together, it's really good for any kind of production business. But the lean philosophy you can really apply to the gym philosophy as well, in terms of gym growth. And it it really gets into it and involved when you look at the internal process and how do you eliminate waste internally? And you because ultimately our goal is to create a lead or generate a lead and then take them from that lead position onto the mats and sign them up. So, how do you do that in the least amount of steps? And how do you do that in a way that feels really good for them? Um, and that's always the the question, right? So that's where that kind of philosophy came in when I was building out my own system.

Joe Motes (Host) 13:33

Yeah, thanks for expanding on that. And then I think about even in recruiting, like the more steps you add in the process, the least likely you have to get that candidate across the finish line, honestly. I mean, it's you know, I've I've been job interviewing some of these things or six six interview steps, and I'm like, no, it's crazy. Thank you, man. It's so crazy. No, thank you.

Speaker 13:54

I just saw something on Twitter about that. Like some candidate lost interest after their fifth interview step. And it's like, you know, I don't play home. Like, who's got time for that?

Joe Motes (Host) 14:03

Like, it's hard when you're going through like job search as a recruiter, like this is my profession, and now I have to like navigate the candidate side, and you just see all of that waste and stuff that you're talking about.

Speaker 14:14

It's crazy.

Joe Motes (Host) 14:15

I mean, if you can't determine in like a couple conversations, is it that this might be the person you want to hire? Right. I mean, what are you gonna get out of three, four, and five? So, yeah. Um, so a lot of times, uh uh as I said, uh this is again my theory. Uh a brown belt or a newly promoted black belt decides to launch their own gym. They go out, they launch it, they you know, have their capital startup, all that, they get through all of that and they open their doors, um, and then they start experiencing the headaches of maybe the lack of growth. And I think it's easy a lot of times uh to think it's maybe a motivation problem, but it's not, right? That you that what you've kind of determined is a process problem. So, kind of two questions here. You know, at what point um did you first kind of realize, hey, it's not a motivation thing, right? It is a process thing and they need better processes. And then what was that final nail in the coffin that said, you know what, I got to do something about this and create pack the mat system?

Speaker 15:19

Sure. So I had uh, you know, after my supply chain stints, I actually had a rash car company no longer around. We called ourselves a Polyroid. And if you're wondering what that means, how did I say it? How do I spell it? Uh, it's probably why we're not around anymore. But um, but um, through that, I really learned a lot about digital marketing. Uh, I got really good at running uh advertising on meta platforms. And, you know, I still had this going on when I approached um Steve, again, owner of uh my gym, Freedom Jiu Jitsu. And I approached him just because I felt I could help the school grow. I we didn't do any kind of advertising, uh, we grew naturally, uh, pretty well organically. But at some point, you know, as a business

Ads Brought Leads Then Chaos

Speaker 16:10

owner, everybody kind of wants more, and a lot of people don't really know how to go out and get it. So I felt like, hey, I know I have the marketing background, I think I could help get us some more leads in. So I approached him with that, and he was all for it. He just told me, you need to manage the leads that come in. I don't have the time. He has like a separate business, that's his main thing. No problem. We start running ads, um, they're doing great. In the first two weeks, we had like 30 leads from it. So that's that was awesome. Um, but you know, I always thought, like, great, someone's a lead, they're just gonna sign up magically. But when I started managing them, I was like, oh wait, I gotta I gotta talk to these people. I have to reach out to them. So now I'm have all these names and numbers in a sprite sheet, and I'm tracking them, you know, through that, and I'm reaching out to them to them through my personal phone, and I'm it's a mess. I can't remember which one said they can't come in that day, and it's trying to coordinate all these things, and who do I need to call still? And it was such a mess. And I it was such a shame because I think of that batch of 30 leads, that initial 30, we maybe signed like one person up or two people, which is really upsetting. Um, upsetting to me because you know, I feel like now I'm letting down Steve in my gym and upsetting because I'm burning Steve's money now because he's paying for the ads. So I was like, all right, I gotta come up with a better solution. And that kind of led me to creating this automated system that can nurture and move leads through our funnel um as efficiently as possible without the need for me. And that's when things really change because now we have this internal system that can convert leads at each stage of our process very efficiently, and we can scale it. So it doesn't matter if there's one lead in there or there's 20, it's gonna still perform the same. And that's when we really start to experience some like exponential growth.

Joe Motes (Host) 18:10

Right, right. So, I mean, like this was front row. This wasn't just you driving down the the road thinking, hey, maybe we should do this and and help out with this. Like you built this out of necessity and something that you and your gym were struggling with. Right. And I think that's that's that's probably about the best way to come up with a new tool or platform. Uh-huh. Um, you know, let's talk about a little bit why good academies maybe still uh maybe struggle. And, you know, what I would imagine you've had a lot of kind of exploratory calls with academies, uh, whether you whether they signed up for Pack the Mat uh system or not, uh what do you usually find when you first kind of look under the hood that's struggling to grow? Are there some things that stand out? Are there some trends? Like it's something you see across the board. This is absolutely something's gonna be in the top three.

Speaker 19:05

Yeah, I mean, I'd say like nine times out of ten, any owner I speak to, the problem they you know perceive that they're facing is a lack of leads. Almost everybody says, I need more leads, I need people

The “Need More Leads” Trap

Speaker 19:20

in the door. Um, they're just very unaware of the process that they are lacking. And that's a common like kind of pitfall, and what to your point, like why good academies can still struggle, is because we always think like, and I I was guilty of this too, right? When I uh wanted to grow, help my gym grow. You know, I you just think it's external. You think, oh, I just throw some money behind some ads and you know, it makes me more students. Um, but that's not the case. And it's a shame because I think a lot of people, especially in like this industry, um, they kind of fall prey to a bit more of like the predatory agencies out there, the ones that are promising like, you know, 90 students in 90 days or you know, things like that. And I think when you're stuck for so long, you are frustrated, you kind of become a bit desperate, and you're willing to just give your money to anybody to make the problem go away. But it's not an external problem, it's it's all internal. Yeah.

Joe Motes (Host) 20:18

I um there there are. There's there's so many things you see out there on IG now when it comes to martial art, gem gross, and and all of it can't work. And you know, it seems like all of them promises to fix everything. Um but uh you know uh you you to get new members, you have to have new leads, right? You have to have people, new interests, not just the people you've sent email blasts to or something 500 times that you've never never heard of. In business school, they call it what, creating like blue oceans and new markets and stuff like that, right? And making sure you cultivate the ones that do come in and they don't go untouched forever. Do you think a school can be this is kind of a little bit of a bone-headed question, but can you do you think do you think uh a school can be really good at teaching jujitsu, but just still be bad at building a sustainable business?

Speaker 21:18

Absolutely. I mean, I'm not gonna throw any of my clients under the bus, but I have some that you know they uh you know they were not where they are, you know, extremely passionate coaches and they have a great culture. They just don't have the business mind or the experience to actually, you know, grow their own gym and get more students in, you know, and that that's why it's such a uh you know an honor for me, I feel to be a part of their team in a way. And I say team as in it's just me and them, but you know, it's like look, you can worry about you know teaching and and your community, and you worry about that, and I'll just worry about the back end stuff. I'll worry about getting more leads from your website, the ads, and the system, and you know, we'll you know, it's it's do you see uh an epidemic of maybe epidemic's not a a a good choice of words, but or word uh like are gyms closing at a higher rate now than say they were because you've been doing it a while, like five years ago, due to bad business?

Joe Motes (Host) 22:27

Or are tools like you know the pack the mat system and maybe some others helping uh the issue of bartering up the doors and rolling up the mats? I mean, are are we seeing an impact positive or are we seeing are we going backwards? Um that's a good question.

Speaker 22:47

I haven't noticed, I guess, an increase in doors being closed. Um, I do think though that like I say like internal system is what's gonna drive your external growth, and it's true, but like what's even more internal than that internal sales system is your gym's identity and its community and like how people feel when they're there because um it was kind of um sad. I had this client for a few years and they recently um had to kind of shut down, and it wasn't because they weren't getting enough leads, or because their their system wasn't you know up to par with what's going on. I think it's just because they didn't have a good community, they didn't have people that stayed. And you know, I I only say this because there was a period of time, like for like I want to say like five or six weeks in a row, you know, I was getting a call from my client, you know, asking me to update the the website schedule because they changed it. And it's like if you're changing classics every week, like something's not right there. And so, you know, it's no amount of marketing and money and systems is gonna fix like a bad culture, you know. I agree. If you have that culture, like a good culture, then you know this you just need a system that can get you to that next level. That's what it is, you know what I mean. Right. I think no, sorry, Phyllon.

Joe Motes (Host) 24:24

No, go ahead, go ahead, finish your thought. I lost it. Sorry. No, I um I I listen, I this is not a question. It's it's a hundred percent, and I agree. If you if something happens to that culture, and we see, I mean, look at what we saw all over IG within the past few months, right? With everything going on with some academies, I some things you just can't get back, some things a process is not gonna fix. You could be processing your leads within 24 hours and signing them to new members, but if you're losing them as fast as you're signing them, or if it's not uh, you know, if women or uh parents feel their kids aren't in a safe environment, yeah, or if the room is full of ego and if every class someone's getting their knee blown out, um, I mean, it's like that stuff you can't yeah, you can't fix. I mean, it's over. It's yeah, it's over. It's not a good place. It's not a good place to be in. Yeah, and it's we when you evaluate uh who to partner with, and um is there a process you follow to make sure that before you partner with someone you're getting uh in in partnership with someone with a good good culture? Because I would imagine it'd be a huge waste of your time if you put all this time and effort into partnering with somebody and 30 days later they shut down because X happened.

Speaker 25:53

Yeah, I mean, that's just I think sometimes the nature of things. It's hard for me to gauge your culture. I don't think anybody's gonna get on a call with me and say, yeah, like my gym kind of sucks. Um, I think I need, you know what I mean? I don't think anybody's gonna say that about their own gym, especially about their own ultra.

Joe Motes (Host) 26:09

Yeah, I'm under investigation.

Speaker 26:10

You know, yeah, like uh we just had a scandal happen. Can you save us? I you know, no one's gonna call and say that. Um, but really, I guess what kind of determines it is where they're at in their um I guess business journey. You know, I don't I want to help everybody I can, but I don't think I'm for everybody, you know, like at some point, like it does come down to leads, you know. And if you are super small and like you're not getting, if you're getting one lead a month, then like uh a great sales system isn't really gonna do much for you. You know, hopefully you have the time to manage that one lead. But my point is, is that you know, if you know, I like to identify if if a gym is getting, you know, eight to sixteen, maybe even twenty leads a month organically through their site, and it's like, okay, well, how much are you converting? You know how many people are looking or showing up to the class, and they're like, I have no idea. Then it's like, okay, I think we're gonna be a good fit because I'm gonna give you that process and that structure to start turning those leads into students.

Joe Motes (Host) 27:18

Right. I um I I I I could 100% see your point. I there again, there's just some things that you they have to do, right? And have to exist and be in place for anything to kind of work or or help them. You know, I would imagine, and I saw this uh firsthand uh with uh one of the gyms that I trained with. Do you see a lot of uh manual processes going on at gyms when you go into them these days?

Speaker 27:50

Uh yeah, it's either uh a manual process or no process.

Joe Motes (Host) 27:54

You know, I mean like before like Excel spreadsheets. I look at that as a very manual process. Yeah, you know.

Speaker 28:00

And before that Excel spreadsheet, you know, I'm talking about my days when I was doing that, there was no process. And I think that's uh the case for a lot of people. It's uh, you know, unfortunately, I say unfortunately, but you know, it people are busy. And you know, a lot of these owners, it's it's kind of their second gig, you know, they want it to be their meantime thing and they want it to get bigger, but they just don't have the time to really either learn how to do it or manage it themselves effectively. And they just rely on kind of um luck or just they move at their own pace. And it's like in today's world and day and age, everything's happening so fast.

Manual Follow-Up And Fast Replies

Speaker 29:28

And it's like if it's gonna take you a day to respond to somebody who filled out your trial form, they might have already scheduled a class with somebody else in your town because they're on top of it and they hit them up in the first, you know, minute that they submitted that form and they got the conversation moving. And it's like, you know, that's really where the the business competitive edge comes into play for jujitsu gyms is like how effectively and quickly can you manage your leads.

Joe Motes (Host) 29:57

Right, right. I um I I wonder if it's a a generational thing too, because you know, some that start martial arts gyms are older, right? Um I I don't think the bulk of them are. I think it's more of a a younger or or midlife kind of career move. But uh I know some will probably either they don't understand automation or they don't see the value. Uh is that something that you see when you come in and maybe it's an older client uh generationally, yeah that you have to maybe do a little more hand-holding or convincing?

Speaker 30:36

I think the biggest um I guess uh reluctancy that they have with that kind of automation or just maybe marketing in general, um, is that they're afraid that by implementing a tool like that or implementing a marketing strategy that it's somehow gonna take away from what they've built, like the community they've built. Like they're almost selling out um their gym to get bigger. You know what I mean? And it's so not the case because you know, no one's gonna learn jujitsu from an automated system. You know, no one's gonna go down to your class and look at a screen and start practicing moves, right? But like those automated tools like can give you like your time back. And not only that, it's gonna grow your business for you. So it's like, to me, it's like it's a no-brainer. And like when people like, you know, kind of throw up that wall, like, oh, I don't want to sell out. It's like I don't understand how. Like you're gonna get more people in their your room experiencing your community. Like, you know, it's not teaching them jujitsu. So, you know, it it is a different um kind of person I talk to in that age range. I do find that uh younger owners are much more receptive and even aware of to like the tools out there, they're just looking for the right one.

Joe Motes (Host) 31:57

Yeah, I I would imagine though, after the conversation, they see the value in something like you know, pack the mats. Um it is a no-brainer, you know, kind of as you say, as you say, it's once you're able to explain. I know one thing that we worry about in talent acquisition um and recruiting is like AI is dominating right now. I mean, there's so much AI going on and bot generation, especially when it comes to for us, a lead is a new candidate, right? An accent. But uh sometimes there's this debate of well, it takes away the the the personal aspect of it. And I'm on the fence with that. I don't necessarily think it does. I think AI does a good job sometimes of of creating personal messages, as long as it's not like a story that you're telling.

Speaker 2 32:47

Right.

Joe Motes (Host) 32:48

But you know, what do you what are your thoughts around uh automating, especially like a lead generation tool, like where that that reach out is automated? Do you do you think that it takes some of the personal uh experience away? Or or no, I personally

What To Automate And What Not

Joe Motes (Host) 33:03

don't think it would, but what are your thoughts on that?

Speaker 33:06

So are you asking like, do I think AI outreach takes it away or like AI takes?

Joe Motes (Host) 33:13

Maybe automation in general. Okay, yeah, automation in general. Uh, do you think it impacts negatively that new lead experience?

Speaker 33:21

No, not at all. I think it it really enhances the customer journey because it is so uh it happens in such real time. You know, like for my system, anytime a lead has to like interface with um, I guess it would be a person typically, right? That's where I have AI involved so that it can communicate with the lead. And it it's the messages it creates are, you know, great. They're per they can be personable, they can be friendly, funny, you know, whatever. But it's it's really not even that. It's just the fact that they can get answers um right now. There they don't have to wait. You know, there's no friction anymore for them. If they need something, answer, they need to know something, they need the booking link again, they need to know your address or the class times or the price or whatever. Like AI can give that to them, you know, like like that. And I think that is the biggest advantage. And that doesn't take away um any kind of personalized experience or any kind of you know sell out or salesy approach. It's just like, hey, this is just a better experience for somebody right now.

Joe Motes (Host) 34:33

I would agree a hundred percent. And I I believe so we hear the term or the phrase time kills all deals. Well, I also think time kills all interest. And we talked a little bit about that when we used the uh scenario or analogy of of recruiting and hiring. At some point you just get burnt out and tired, or or worse, if you don't hear anything back at all. You know, I've applied now for probably over a hundred jobs, and you know, I think a month and a half ago, because I'm being a little selective, sure. A month and a half ago, two days ago, I got one of the auto emails, or maybe it was an auto email. I don't know, we couldn't tell. But like it was six weeks ago. Yeah. I'm not even thinking about that. I'm not even thinking about that anymore. If my if it was six weeks before someone from you know Strike Force Gym, a client of yours messaged me back. I just went with the craziest name I could think of. No, I was gonna um uh even I wouldn't even be thinking about jujitsu. I wouldn't have followed up. I wouldn't be like, what are you talking about? I may not even remember it.

Speaker 35:34

So And six weeks is like uh a big, you know, I know you're like exaggerating it, but like it happens like you could wait like eight hours and people already forget. They're already moving on. Uh, you know, it it's it's happening so fast, and it's there's just no way to keep up with it, you know, as a human. That's the biggest follow back is your time.

Joe Motes (Host) 35:55

And you know, for some people, it could it could be a real kind of like pushing themselves to reach out to a gym and yeah and go do something like this, right? Like they've never done a physical sport or something. So yeah, time, time is of the essence, right? Um do you think there's uh anything that shouldn't be automated? I mean, obviously in jujitsu, we know technique and things like that, but maybe anything outside of technique can you think of anything?

Speaker 36:21

Of course. Um, and I I tell this to uh to all my calls, all my clients, you know, personally, I don't like to automate or use AI for that last, you know, 20% of your funnel. You know, the top 20%, like, yeah, let's answer the leads questions, let's give them a time to come in, send them reminders, right? That all can be automated. That's because that's a lot of like heavy lifting, and there's not um, you know, it's it's kind of low uh return on investment. You know, when you have somebody that has come in, has tried your class, you know, they just didn't pull the trigger right then and there. Now it's like this is who you should be focusing your energy on. Personally, right? You shouldn't have AI selling to somebody when you or your staff have met them, when you now have seen their face, when you've kind of seen them in your room. Like you shouldn't have this, you know, software selling to them. Now it's up to you. Now you gotta give them a call. Uh, and then that's what you know I think makes the system so good is because it's a good blend of like, hey, this is gonna take care of the the dirty work, the the annoying stuff, and then this is who you should focus on. This is who you want to focus on.

Joe Motes (Host) 37:35

Yeah, so it sounds like the coaches need to understand, even when they use these tools or owners need to understand, even when they use these tools and automations, like they still own the success of them, right? They're not there's nothing that's gonna come in and fix everything.

Speaker 2 37:49

Right.

Joe Motes (Host) 37:49

Uh, because they can, you know, they can pay for the platforms and dump all this money into advertising, but if they're not putting in the work, they're not gonna get the maximum ROI. Correct, correct.

Speaker 38:01

And you know, I think some of the clients I've had in the past have expected that, have expected this system just to to literally do everything. You know, I can think of one off the top of my head. Um, remember him calling me up. This is like only a month after, you know, into his uh our relationship. He's like, Oh, it's not working. I'm like, oh, like have you been in, have you logged in and like, you know, done the you know, move them around? He's like, no. I was like, okay, well, you know, you should do that, and then tell me if it's not working, like, you know, that's it's it's still like up to you or your staff to a degree, but like this is just going to make it as easy as possible to put someone on the mat and then it's up to you to sign it up and get it going.

Joe Motes (Host) 38:46

Yeah, and I I I I would hope that most coaches understand that. And I know I'm sure it's something in your process and your sales process that you make sure you communicate. I um I want us to take uh uh some time here and talk about you know conversion and traffic because I know that's your passion. That's that's what you know the Pac the Mat system is about, is you know, not only you know, take taking these leads that come in and putting them through a process that you know works, that's you know, proof of concept, it's founded, it's working. So I want to talk a little bit about this. Um a lot of times I think people put the horse before the cart in in business and in general gym ownership, and they just want to, you know, dump money into advertising and just they feel like the more money they dump into advertising, the better. But what is, you know, why would you recommend uh fixing the conversion process, like having a good process in place before pouring money into advertising? Because it seems like if you get a hundred people in, what do you do with them, right?

Speaker 39:53

Right. Yeah, no. Uh great question. So this is kind of what I like will say on my

Conversion Math Before Spending More

Speaker 39:58

calls if they bring that up, or if I'm trying to maybe educate somebody on why the conversion is important. Let's say you want to add 10 students this month. If my conversion rate is 10%, I need a hundred leads to do that. 100 leads, that's a ton of leads. But if my conversion rate is 20%, that's only twice as good. 20%, I need half that amount of leads. I need 50. So it's such an exponential increase. And you know, you know, 20% is still like a relatively low conversion. It's still pretty good, it could be, but you're going from 100 leads to 50. You know, if you're paying, you know, 10 bucks a lead, that's $500 you just save just from having a conversion process that's twice as good.

Joe Motes (Host) 40:47

Yeah. I um people don't think like that, I think, as owners. And I and I get it, right? They they don't understand yield ratios and funnels.

Speaker 40:56

Yeah, no, totally.

Joe Motes (Host) 40:57

And stuff like that, right? Um, I think it's important for anyone who is in the you know, gym growth software business. This is becoming an industry, I think. Man, it's great. They don't even know how to define it. I think it's really cool, though, but um to be able to communicate that because I think it also goes back to what we were just talking about and inspiring them and encouraging them to do their part. If they know their numbers, if they know, okay, I have to do 100 because I'm only gonna get 10%, or right now I need 200 because I'm only getting 5%. Yeah. And I think it also shows the impact of the platform uh as those yield ratios go up and down and get better for them, right? So um is there a uh and again, this is uh around the lead processing uh kind of platform, what we're talking about here. Is there a a place where you see students disappear the most, like in the process where they start, where they fall out? Yeah, is it from they just don't get contacted or they get contacted and so not getting contacted is is the really you know biggest killer, right?

Speaker 42:06

That's a kind of a given. Um, but let's say you go through the work, you talk to them, you find a time for them to come in, and you schedule them, right? But then nothing happens between that scheduling and their trial date. That's actually the biggest area that I see um people falling out of in sort of a missed opportunity. And again, I you know, I know that because I experienced it when I was doing everything from a spreadsheet. I would go through all the work, all the back and forth to finally get in somebody to say, Yeah, I spent a good time, I'll come in then, and then I stopped, you know, and then they forget or just whatever. Life happens, they lose interest, who knows? And then, you know, you don't have anybody coming in when they're supposed to. And the biggest, you know, opportunity there is just having automated appointment reminders, and not just including the date and time, but including information that's almost, you know, what I think is at least like vital to their experience. Like, what do they need to know? Like, where are you located? What should I bring? How long is the class? And then what can I expect? You know, so you're you're giving them, you know, in a way, you're giving them value, you're setting expectations, and you're answering any possible question that might stop them from coming in. You said it earlier, like it's you know, it's a hard sport to get into, it's hard to take that first step, and just submitting the form is a step in itself, you know, per internally for them. So people kind of will look for excuses when they're doing something outside their comfort zone. So if you're not, if they don't know where to go or what to bring or you know, what to expect, that's gonna push them away, maybe consciously or unconsciously. So that's a really big area I see that um student or I should say leads are are kind of falling out of.

Joe Motes (Host) 44:01

Yeah, I I really like that. Uh that layer you you you you add to um the automation and and sending that out, like what to bring, what to wear. And I think it's even an opportunity for for owners and for gyms to stand out from others, right? You can put fun messages in there about your community, you can include videos, you can do all this stuff, right? Like it shouldn't just be, hey, looking forward to seeing you, high five emoji.

Speaker 44:27

Yeah, right.

Joe Motes (Host) 44:27

Like there's like what does that tell anybody?

Speaker 44:29

Nothing.

Joe Motes (Host) 44:30

And uh I mean, I can't I can't remember. Well, I don't think I don't necessarily know if I was invited. No, no, I went through my son was uh signed up. But I could imagine if it like today, if you know, I was uh Googling Jiu Jitsu Gyms near me and wanting to reach out. I'm pretty sure I could go to one. I would fill out the form. Maybe two days later I would get an auto email. Saying, hey, thanks. And this is here's our schedule. That's it. Right. And I think that's what a lot of gems do.

Speaker 2 44:57

Yeah.

Joe Motes (Host) 44:57

And correct me if I'm wrong, but to have some kind of personalized message, right? And give them the information and eat, have them motivated, like sell before you even get them in the door, man, for the trial class. That's your opportunity. I love that.

Speaker 45:12

No, yeah. Get them excited to come, you know.

Joe Motes (Host) 45:16

So, so let's talk a little bit about, and you probably got a lot of opinions about this, I would imagine. I'm excited. Um, about like what is the role of a of a website? Because I think some gems do great with their website, and I think some do terrible, man. Oh, yeah. And I look at it through, I hate to do it, but I look at it through my marketing and kind of recruiting like background and business background. Every time I look at a website, and uh I don't think there's a perfect template, but there is a template for success. So what do you think the job of an academy's or school's website is? What do you think the overall job is?

Speaker 45:53

Yeah, yeah. I mean, ultimately, like personally, like what I think it's to convert your traffic into a lead. And we don't just want any bit of traffic coming in to be a lead. It has to be able to qualify them in some way. You know, so the way I like to do that is, you know, the conversion I guess I push for is the free

Website Conversion And Lead Quality

Speaker 46:19

class trial, or you know, some people do the free league trial, free week trial. Um, whatever your you know kind of initial offer is, that's what should be the clearest thing on the website is at any point I could see a button or I could see the direction I need to go to take the next step. Now, when that happens and the form pops up, that's where you want to qualify some people. Uh, you want to do your qualification a bit more. And what I mean by that is you don't just want name, number, phone, email, uh, because all that stuff can be auto-filled by Google or any of the search engines. And you know, why I think that's bad is because I want people signing up with intention, right? If it's just made easy for me, I'm not really that intent about it. It's just it's easier than me having to type it out. So I like to include a few extra questions on my forum, like, how did you hear about us? What are your goals? How many, you know, have you done anything like this before? You have an experience. So they're simple enough questions, but it's still going to engage them and they still have to actually type in an answer. Those things can't be autofilled. And just that alone will deter your, you know, your bad leads or your low quality leads. And, you know, that's you know, because the system is great, right? But if you put crappy leads in it, you're gonna get crappy results. So how do we make sure we don't do that? How do we get the best lead possible? And that's where the website comes in. It's convert the traffic and qualify it.

Joe Motes (Host) 47:56

Yeah, yeah. Track, convert. I I would agree. I um I some some websites I see it's just like the logo, the phone number, what have you. Like if you there's a website out there that I think does pretty good of pooling the jujitsu academies out there. It's like my jujitsu academy or jujitsu academy directors. I can't remember. I got a bookmark. I can't even remember what it is. But anyway, um, I was uh pulling a spreadsheet. Now it was I wanted to have all the gems around because I traveled a lot back a few jobs ago and I always wanted something on there.

Speaker 2 48:32

Yeah.

Joe Motes (Host) 48:32

But I would I would when I would look for a gym, I'll go to their website and uh, you know, I think having pictures and images of your uh site, but I would look at the sign-up, right? And if there is there a way to ask questions, is there a well, maybe not sign up, maybe that's not a good um description of what I'm saying. Is there a way that I can engage and get answers without having to leave voicemails and wait for callbacks and stuff like that, right? And very few have it, especially the non-franchises and even the big franchises. You know, your your your Gracie bar uh baras, your even your line. I mean, like some of these just they don't have it and they're huge.

Speaker 2 49:13

Yeah.

Joe Motes (Host) 49:14

And and they're in, I mean, they they shouldn't by name, you would think, have lead generation issue, but you don't know. Yeah, right. Um, because you know, sometimes the websites talking about the lineage and the attractions there, but like how can we engage, right?

Speaker 49:33

How can we I'm laughing just because I I know what you're saying. I agree totally.

Joe Motes (Host) 49:38

Yeah, I mean, I like it's great to hear about the championships and stuff, and that's awesome. But like I'm I don't know anything about martial arts. I don't know who Hoist Gracie is. I mean, I do, but the average church is not gonna know who Hoist Gracie is, right? Or uh, you know. Um, so no, it's it's awesome. I really wanted us to spend some time and talking about like the website and the importance. And you know, before uh, because I want to leave some time here for you to kind of share a good overview of Pac-Themat system and how it can help uh academy owners and listeners, because we have a lot of academy owners and coaches out there that are part of the community, and we're super excited to have them as part of the community. And an episode like this, I definitely want it to help with their growth. But again, before that, so do you think um I don't want to position this question. Do you think that kind of the mom and pop jujitsu uh academies need more help than some of the bigger, larger uh maybe franchises? And I say mom and pop in no disrespect, but just kind of because like out of the 42,000 global jujitsu gyms, like over half of them or 60% of them are non-franchised. It's a fragmented market. Yeah, it's a huge, fragmented market that would that you that it is, right? So, like what do you what are your thoughts? I mean, for someone like yourself, is there is there a certain uh academy profile that you target? What are your thoughts on that?

Speaker 51:16

So personally, like from my experience and and clients and discovery calls, and you know, mom and pop or franchise, nobody very few people do it right. Um, you know, and they they both need just as much help. You know, I have several uh franchise clients, all from the the same one, and you know, I help them overcome the same problem, right? Growth, because they all lack the system, you know, and it it you know, the franchise is just a name. And again, I guess you know it's a draw because if you if someone like you, you're traveling around, like you see uh, you know, an Alliance or a Gracie, you're maybe a bit more inclined because you're you know involved in the jiu-jitsu community, so you kind of know what to expect by going there. You're like, oh, maybe I'll try out that franchise because I've heard it, seen it, right? But like at the end of the day, again, it's just somebody who's never done it looking to get involved. So your name doesn't really mean anything to them. You know, it's just how do you process them, how do you nurture them and and get them to the mat. Um, and I feel like regardless of franchise with mom and pop, everybody struggles with that.

Joe Motes (Host) 52:27

Yeah, so you see it as a across the board problem. Yeah. Not because, not that, hey, they're big, you know, their big brother, they figured it out, right? Right. Um, no one's figured it out, you're saying. Yeah.

Speaker 52:41

I mean, there's there's definitely some out there, and there are some people in the space that um have the same mindset and kind of philosophy that I do. And it's it's encouraging to see that, that you know, that's starting to become the focal point. Like, hey, like what is actually gonna make a gym successful and grow? And that's a really good thing that that's starting to come about. Um, but it's still like, you know, there's still so many gyms that are unaware, you know.

Joe Motes (Host) 53:11

You know, uh a question came to mind when you were you when you were answering the last question. Um let's talk about drop-ins, right? Like someone who's visiting a gym. Is there a is there a responsibility to that that gym owner or that gym to have a process to manage drop-ins and the follow-up and kind of keep in touch? And like, like I I jump, I dropped in when I was in Vegas uh to a Cabrina uh Cabrera, Cabrina gym. I think I'm saying that right. And I still get some emails, hey, can't wait till you're back in Vegas to see us again. You know, if you're in the area, we'd love to have you come train with us, you know. And they feel I I know they're automated, I get that, but they feel good personal and it keeps them on my mind. And there's another, I think it's a top team, American top team gym, that I visited when I was in South Georgia that does something similar. Because I signed up, you know, they had me sign up for their emails when I I sent the you know email message or whatever on the website. Like, do you do you think that there's a responsibility there? And is there a process that they need to be thinking about?

Speaker 54:24

I mean, personally, I've never looked at it like that. I I've always processed drop-ins the same as uh you know just anybody looking to kind of come in and sign up. But yeah, I think that's awesome. That uh what Jim was in in Las Vegas, you said it was the 10th.

Joe Motes (Host) 54:39

It was a Cabria, it was an Alliance, yeah. Yeah, I um I gotta look at it. I got it in my emails, but yeah, it was. And like they have a whole like it's a separate workflow. You can tell it's a separate workflow because it's using it's using language of hey, I know you don't live here, I know you just visited, but like come back soon. I'll actually I'll actually send you that email so you can see it. Yeah, that's because it's really cool. It's really cool.

Speaker 55:08

No, that's that's that's really great that that they're doing that. That's something I've never even really considered. Um, and you know, just kind of thinking off the top of my head now, it's probably somewhere like that, like a high, you know, kind of destination area. It's probably good that they have that, you know. I think maybe more local mom and pop ones, or just even, you know, if you're not in like a destination area, like it's probably not like it's probably very, very niche, is what I'm trying to say. Like it's like I'm not going back to Eugene, Oregon train probably never, right?

Joe Motes (Host) 55:48

But like there's a high chance I may go back to right, right. So like what Master Worlds is there, right? Every year.

Speaker 55:56

So that's actually really sharp on their part, but they're doing stuff. That's a good point, man.

Joe Motes (Host) 56:01

They didn't make that connection.

Speaker 56:02

That's actually really cool. They do that.

Joe Motes (Host) 56:04

Yeah. Yeah, that's cool. Um, no, I I I just it came to my head and I thought that that because I know I've dropped into a lot, probably more than I could count. I thought about doing this like passport book, like getting it created. That's cool, but then I stopped traveling. So I'm I'm kind of glad. I mean, I was getting burnt out. Yes, kids are getting older, but it sucks too.

unknown 56:27

God, man.

Joe Motes (Host) 56:28

Especially these days. And then like I don't know, did you see recently what happened here in Atlanta? Um with all the uh God, there was a big shutdown, but Atlanta took it the hardest. I mean, it took days to get or like a couple weeks. It was something, it was some kind of system, I don't know, with Delta, some kind of system shutdown or error or something like that. But it took like weeks to get over. And then I mean, flying's just become crazy, dude.

Speaker 56:58

So crazy. So crazy.

Joe Motes (Host) 57:00

Yeah. Um, no, man, I know uh so I know we're getting here at the top of the hour, but what I would love for you to do, uh, Michael, is share a little uh kind of an overview of what Pack the Mat system is, high level, and how it can specifically help that gym owner who's who's struggling with processing leads. Maybe, maybe it's just them and they're experiencing growth. Uh, maybe you know they need a tool to help them manage, or maybe they're not getting anything.

Speaker 57:32

Yeah. Um, so high-level overview, it's a holistic growth system, meaning it is all connected and it's really built off of what we've primarily talked about on this episode is that internal sales system, right? You have a lead, you nurture them, you turn them into a new student, and then from that, two things happen. So when you get a new student, a new name, a new member, two things are gonna happen. One, you're gonna increase your awareness. So you get more awareness, meaning you get more referrals, meaning more traffic to your website, and then that's gonna generate you leads. And then when you also get more students, you get more money, um, which allows you to have fun things like an advertising budget. So now you're running ad campaigns, and the ad campaigns generate you leads, and then it feeds back into the nurture system. So it's just a really

Pack The Mat Overview And Next Steps

Speaker 58:28

simple, connected process that um just feeds itself. That's awesome. That's awesome.

Joe Motes (Host) 58:35

I um I was excited when you shared uh kind of a demo with me. I thought it was super, super cool. I know if I was a gym owner, it would absolutely be part of my uh automations part, right? I um is is Pactimat system kind of a standalone plot platform? Does it integrate with anything? Is it is it like a does that make sense? Yeah, yeah.

Speaker 58:56

No, it is uh it's a web platform. But it can integrate with um any kind of billing system you have. It integrates very well with any uh pre-existing websites, uh, very simple. And it integrates super well with your uh socials and your advertising platform. So meta ads, you just hook it up and it feeds the leads you generate right into the system.

Joe Motes (Host) 59:21

Dude, I saw something, a meme or something that says uh our system's so awesome it integrates with MySpace. I was like, what, dude? It was a joke. It took me a few minutes. It was like a but oh my god, man. You remember MySpace?

Speaker 59:40

No, that was like right before I don't I never used it. I used AIM a lot or ALLACT, dude.

Joe Motes (Host) 59:47

That's crazy. I um anyway, no, if you could give, as we kind of get here to the close, if you could give one piece of advice to academy owners struggling with enrollment, what would it be?

Speaker 1:00:05

So I guess really uh practical, tactical advice that anybody could do, whether you're struggling or not, is if you've been around for any amount of time, you probably have a list of people that filled out your form and you never signed them up, whether they came in or not, right? You probably have a stack of that laying around somewhere. Go back to that, create like a specific, you know, offer for them and start reaching out to them. Those are you know leads just waiting to be uh reactivated, and it's a great way to get some uh more students in your mats, on your mats, and it's a great way to just you know, everybody wants more leads. Well, you already have leads, don't be afraid to go back to them. They're it's not gonna cost you anything, and it's a really, really easy way to just get a few signups, maybe even a dozen or whatever. Um, and that's just one of my favorite things. You know, every six months I'll just go through and just hit up all my cold leads again, just with a little offer.

Joe Motes (Host) 1:01:11

Yeah, yeah. I mean, I that's like sales 101, right? Right, lead and lead unless they told you not to contact them and DNC. Yeah, they're always a lead. Always. Always. That's the way I see it. It's always an active candidate if they've never told me never to call them again. I've got some, I've had some of those, man. That's awesome. Um no, Michael. Uh how can how can people learn more about you, resources? How can how can a gym owner who's listening to this, right, or somebody who just wants to learn more about what you're doing, uh kind of get resources and in contact with you uh regarding PacTe Map?

Speaker 1:01:48

Sure. So if anything we've talked about today really resonated with you, you can find me over at MorestudentsLesswork.com. I have a blog where I will post and share a lot of what we talked about today, a little bit more tactical on how to actually implement it. I also have a YouTube channel. It's the same as all my socials. It's Michael Spear. You can find me on YouTube, Facebook, Instagram with that. Or if you think you're ready to take the next step, I do offer a free 30-day trial of the system. And again, that's over at MorestudentsLesswork.com.

Joe Motes (Host) 1:02:24

Well, Michael, thank you so much for joining me this evening. I know we're doing this a little late at night, um, which is always a fun time to do it. I uh appreciate everything that you're doing to help gyms grow. I think what you developed is something that, you know, gym owners need to utilize, right? And really help them convert those leads. So for those of you listening out there who are interested in reaching out to Michael, all of his information and information information that he just shared will be in the show notes. And thanks for joining us. Be sure to like, follow, subscribe. And until next time, remember always keep your passion brewing.