Episode #38 - The General, Master Fabio Gurgel: Building Champions, Teams, and The Future of Jiu Jitsu

Sitting down with Master Fabio Gurgel, we go straight to the roots and then build forward: why the art’s foundations haven’t changed, how techniques evolve without abandoning first principles, and what it really takes to keep people training for decades.

Master Gurgel shares a candid origin story from Rio karate detour, street confidence, and the first class that changed everything then breaks down the growth curve from small brackets where everyone knew each other to a global scene where masters divisions fill stadiums. He makes a clear, data-informed case for gi training as the most accessible and sustainable path for the majority of adults while still respecting no-gi’s athletic demands and innovations. The takeaway isn’t “this vs that,” it’s “one art, many expressions,” and a call for instructors to stop defending blind spots by attacking styles they don’t teach.

We dive into competition as a mirror: a place to impose a plan, hide weaknesses, and practice emotional control when nothing feels normal. Master Gurgel offers a useful distinction for first-timers survive vs impose and explains how to move from endurance to execution. From there, we trace the birth of Alliance: unifying teammates under one banner, then building a scalable methodology so beginners learn safely, fundamentals travel well, and schools feel like home whether you’re a hobbyist or a world-class competitor. Leadership, in his view, is sharing the dream creating opportunities, promoting others, and refusing complacency.

The future looks young and bright. Kids’ programs are booming when grouped by developmental stage, and real training beats screen dopamine every time. Social media becomes a study tool when used with intent think Marcelo Garcia’s butterfly guard, not endless scrolling. The real challenge ahead is retention: clear communication, consistent structure, and a culture that makes people better on and off the mats. If fewer than 5 percent compete, what are we doing for the other 95? That’s where the art either grows up or fades.

If this conversation sharpened your thinking, hit follow, share it with a teammate, and leave a review so more practitioners can find it. What mindset are you bringing to your next round: survive or impose?

Grab a Copy of Unshakeable: http://bit.ly/4pTtxdP

Connect with Master Gurgel on Instagram: @fabiogurgel

Learn More about Alliance Jiu Jitsu Team: https://www.allianceofficial.com/en/

https://youtu.be/9rL4L4GNJf0

Chapters

• 0:00 Welcoming Master Fabio Gurgel
• 3:50 Starting Jiu-Jitsu And Early Rio Culture
• 8:45 Then vs Now: Popularity And Foundations
• 12:20 Gi vs No-Gi: Participation And Longevity
• 19:30 No False Divides: One Jiu-Jitsu, Many Paths
• 24:15 Lifelong Learning And Humility On The Mats
• 29:40 Influences: Gracie Lineage And Coaching Legends
• 36:20 Early Competition Scene And Strategy
• 42:00 Emotions, Mindset, And Learning To Compete
• 48:40 Should Hobbyists Compete At Least Once?
• 54:30 Why Alliance Was Founded
• 58:40 Standardizing Teaching: The Alliance Method
• 1:05:30 Fundamentals First And Scalable Structure
• 1:11:20 Culture, Leadership, And Shared Ownership

Transcript

Host: 0:56

Welcome back, everyone, to another episode of Caffeinated Jiu Jitsu. I am super excited for today's episode. Today's guest is someone whose influence on Brazilian jiu-jitsu is so deep, so foundational, that many of us uh in jiu-jitsu uh train under his philosophy, whether we realize it or not. He is a seventh-degree Coral Belt. He is one of the founders of one of the most successful jiu-jitsu teams of all time, Alliance Jiu-Jitsu. He is a world champion competitor, a legendary coach, visionary, and author, and one of the most respected minds on the mats, as well as in the business world. And beyond the medals and titles, he is known for something even greater. And that is uh discipline, character, and the unwavering commitment he displays for the art of jujitsu. He's coached and mentored countless world champions and helped professionalize jiu-jitsu on a global scale and continues to influence generations such as myself of practitioners through his teaching, leadership, and example. It is truly an honor for me and a milestone in my journey to welcome one of the architects of modern Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu. Welcome, Master Fabio Grigel.

Master Gurgel: 2:26

Thank you very much.

Host: 2:30

And I hope that intro was good. I actually worked on it.

Master Gurgel: 2:34

Man, that introduction couldn't be any better.

Host: 2:37

All right, good, good. I um I just I'm gonna share just a really quick uh sort of funny story. It was really embarrassing for me, but um I interviewed uh Master Jacquared uh last year, and uh I got his belt ranked wrong. And no one, uh uh Professor Nogera, and uh I don't know if you know DJ Farmer.

Master Gurgel: 3:05

Uh of course, DJ, of course, great friends.

Host: 3:08

Oh my gosh, they gave me the hardest time.

Master Gurgel: 3:10

Uh no, but thank you so much for being tried to make that master's at that one. It's not very cold, right? So the it's not gonna really meet, you know.

Host: 3:21

Yeah, well, I practice saying his last name as well, and then I get his belt rank wrong. So it's just the flu. But uh again, thank you so much for being here and taking time. I'm excited to have this conversation. And one of the things that I struggled with in preparing for our conversation today was uh really where to start. And um I I have my copy here of Unshakable, and I've I'm about a third of the way through it, and I can't put it down. Uh, but I I think uh when we have a hard time to start, sometimes it's best to start at the beginning. So what I would love to do is, you know, hear about your beginning in jujitsu in the early days, and you know, what was different then than now? I would imagine a lot.

Master Gurgel: 4:06

Oh yeah, I think I think the most uh the biggest difference between what we had in that time and and and nowadays is that jujitsu now is way more popular. Uh but back then, Jiu-Jitsu was kind of famous and real when I blew up. And I grew up in real, uh my my my seizure to when I decided to start shoots is going to because I was, you know, with 13 to 14, it's that time of life where you start getting out of your parents' protection, let's say, uh walking the streets, you know, and dealing with, you know, maybe all the older, you know, people and all the guys uh on the streets on the beach. And real Janeiro culture is like, you know, I really really close by to the beach. So I used to walk around myself and it started to feel a little insecure. And uh I said, okay, I need to do something else. You know, I need to prepare myself if something happens, I wanna I want to know how to fight. And uh but my first decision uh was to do karate. So I went to karate school when I was 13 and started doing karate because it was you know more well known than Jiu Jitsu in that time, mostly in television. You know, I used to watch grocery movies and stuff. And then I started doing karate and uh, you know, it was fun, but the the problem was that I have a brother three years and and something older than me. And we used to fight almost every day, right? It's a brother fight. Right. And uh and um and karate didn't help me much, you know. So I was getting beat up every day for my brother through the day that a parent of mine invited me to go to a jiu-jitsu school to try her. And uh from the first class, Joe, I just fell in love completely. You know, so the self-expensive aspect was too small and intelligence that really convinced me to keep going. So I need to I had to convince my my my parents to let me, you know, quit out of and change the judicials that which was not that easy task to do at my house is we need to commit with something. And this was part of our, you know. Uh uh that's how my parents, you know, raised us. They look if you decide to do something, you gotta you gotta do that that thing that you decide to do. So in a few months I I I decided to quit. So it I had to deal with my parents about that, but I I could convince them that it was good. So it won't give you Jitsu. And in the in a few months, I was able to completely control my brother. You know, so it shows me the efficiency of Jiu Jitsu. And I said, man, you know what, this is what I'm gonna do. You know, so that's that's why my my start, and uh after years, uh I I learned studying with Professor Clayton Christians and the uh uh former professor from Howard Business School, uh, a concert called Job to Be Done. And Job to be done is where you really the reason why you really decide to buy a product or hard service. And when I asked myself what's the real reason why I started with Ipsum, I would say that to give it up to my brother. I think that's a good reason to start. And then after that, I had to keep up doing the same thing. So I couldn't I couldn't quit, you know. And my brother, of course, he decided to as well. He's a use of black bell, you know, you know, high level as well. But he couldn't catch up because I was training more than him, because he he was studying at the Engineering University in Brazil. He just had uh, you know, I think uh he didn't have the time that I have to put on the back. But uh yeah, that's that's my my reason why I started jujitsu.

Host: 8:34

Yeah, I found uh yeah, it's good to hear the story kind of live. I I know you shared uh kind of the origin story in your in your book. When when we think about uh the early days of jujitsu or you know when you first uh started out, what what are some of the major differences that you see then and now? Um maybe it's in in in gym culture, uh competing. I know we're gonna talk a little bit later. I have some uh thoughts and and conversation, dialogue around uh competition, but uh what what are some things that stand out in your mind as you continue in your your journey?

Master Gurgel: 9:11

I think I think the difference that that time competition was pretty small. What what people uh the reason why people were doing research in that time was different, you know, it is it was basically uh to know self-defense. Uh and then of course you start having the community and going to the academy and training with your balls, and then you you have competitions here and there, and the rivalry between schools uh were all also uh motivating aspect to continue going and and all that. But it was very small. And I I remember when I was a blue belt, I used to go to the competitions. And I knew every single person. You know, so I knew from the blue belt to black belt, the the full bracket, you know, that that's how small it was. You know. But um again, and we compare it to nowadays, you just just blew all over the world. So you go to a competition, uh barely know the top guys in the in the black belt division. You know, of course, besides my students, but the that that's the reality, you know. Um but conceptually thinking, I don't think she should change that much. You know, of course, you we do have a much more techniques because it's uh it's a constant evolution and it will never stop. But I think the foundation is pretty much the same. Uh the efficiency is pretty much the same. Uh we just replace techniques for new new ways to do it. The same thing, the same kind of control, the same kind of uh power to be you know that it's just increase with time. Yeah.

Host: 11:07

Yeah, I again obviously I wasn't around uh then. Um but but I've heard similar similar stories for those who have been you know doing jujitsu for 20 plus years, 15 years, what have you, that conceptually it's it's not a lot different. Um I think the biggest thing that that I hear when when talking to people, uh especially because I go to a lot of different I train in a lot of different uh places uh with travel with work and I had the opportunity the last year to travel uh train in the Philippines. And that was a lot of fun. It was a lot different. Um but I do ask some of those these questions to just get insight. And uh I think the thing that I hear a lot is just kind of the and I don't know if you have any thoughts on this, but uh kind of the rise and and the focus of of Nogi. Um well, I don't know if it was really it really a rise, but uh a lot more attention, I guess maybe that's the word, uh, when it comes to no-gi.

Master Gurgel: 12:05

Yeah, I think there's uh of course a lot of noise uh when you go for the internet and you put something over there, you know, and see, oh, okay, these are a lot of people are talking about no gear stuff. Uh look, I'm not against no gear. It's been it's been there for many, many years. You really train no gi every southern Brazil days, you know. So no gee was very important to every everyone there well to represent the five to the match. So usually train no gift was you know, but the question is uh people try to compare No-Gi and Gee. And I would tell you why No-Gi will never catch up with E. And the reason is very simple. Uh in order to train Logi, you need to be uh I would say athletic. You know, the the the speed of the fight is way faster. You need to be, you know, uh in in very good shape in order to enjoy training OG. So it goes down to a fairly small portion of the population. In the opposite, Gee is way more comfortable. You can trade Ghee, and with time, as you slow down your you know, salina and physical capacity, you can change your game, you can attach, you can do something different, you can slow down the pace, you can still have a lot of fun and be real. But when you look to Jiu Jitsu nowadays and and see who is doing jujitsu, the majority of the academies are working with people from 35 to 50. This is the the main uh you know uh age that's training jujitsu right now in the academies. If you go to the no-gi, probably not, probably the young, the one the young guys that you know are four stamina that wants to compete in the fight. But then you go to the competition and then you look at the competitions in Gi and no gi and you see the difference, the gaps. You know, you can't compare. You know, the if you get uh um uh uh the world masters competition is the biggest uh tournament uh nowadays in in the British. Uh the last tournament in Venice, we had uh 12,000 athletes competing. You can get whatever no git whatever you want. You know, it doesn't go even close to that. Right? And those guys cannot keep doing it. They do for a few years and then they they stop because it's it's not possible. If you look to the academies, even the academies that offer gear and no gear, the same amount, that that's taking Marcel Lugarcia as an example. This academy do 50% gear, 50% no gear. So it's exactly the same treatment, you know. He's always bigger, you know, the classroom he is always bigger. So I don't see I don't see the necessity of that type of argument, to be honest. I think you have these jujitsu. I don't like that separation, you know, yeah. But if you want to compare, he's incomparable, you know, in terms of size and and you know, analysity. Uh G is way more supreme.

Host: 15:55

Yeah. It's encouraging uh to hear that insight. Um, because because so uh look for transparency, I'm 46 years old and I didn't start training until I was what 42 or 43. And uh yeah, I'm I'm not the most athletic person on the mat. Um I I have no martial arts background training or wrestling or anything like that. Uh so so yes, 100% gi is more comfortable for me as a practitioner. Um and when I compete, I can I compete uh solely in in the gi and uh probably will continue that. I uh I I agree. I don't think it necessarily should be an argument. I think it's there's benefits to both. And like you said, it's been around since since everything's uh.

Master Gurgel: 16:43

Yeah, I think I think I think Joe, people we always try to, you know, create some, you know, topics to to discuss and the polemic, you know, and try to to you know create some stabilization of the system, you know. That's it's happening in different areas, not just in Jiu Jitsu, right? Right. So uh uh what what people try in jiu-jitsu is say, okay, and give against Stogi or old school against new school, all these things uh doesn't really uh matter much because jujitsu is one thing only. What happened is that people usually don't have the whole package. So if I don't have the whole package, for example, if I don't know uh how to teach self-defense, let me talk bad about the old school jiu-jitsu. Because it's gonna be much easier for me to convince my students and my people that what I'm doing is the correct thing. And the other way around is also true. So let's say you are an old school jujitsu guy that knows a lot of self-defense, that learned jujitsu back then when jujitsu was small and all that. And then you were not able to keep evolving your techniques to the point that you know what's going on right now in the competition. What's the easiest way? Oh, let's talk bad about those guys that are doing bitting balls and you know what they did on fancies and crazy moves. And defend what is fundamental, what is Jesus, and tell people that this is a real future and the other thing is bullshit. Right. It's just because you couldn't keep up the evolution. That's why you're talking back. So again, it's it's in yourself the problem. You know, I don't talk better about self-defense because I know very well self-defense. I don't talk better about, you know, the young generation techniques because I know that those guys are performing way better than we used, you know, because I train with them every day. So I know I feel it, you know. Uh so they counter the techniques that we used to have that were very fast, they used new techniques, and that's the that's the evolution that Jiu Jitsu needs to keep evolving. So there is no separation, right? So I don't I don't say that this is bad or this is good. I think the jujitsu that we do nowadays is the best version for obvious reasons. You know, you are you are training to evolve, and the techniques they were doing now are just techniques that people want to learn because they are effective. Otherwise they they don't mean nothing, right? So that that's the point. There is no separation, you know. should stop thinking is as one thing.

Host: 20:03

Yeah. Yeah. I I think one of the most attractive things about um jujitsu for me, well there's many. Um but it it's something that that I'm going to do for the for the rest of my life and I'm never going to stop learning. Yeah no no one day is going to be the same and I like that. That is as I need that as a man as a person. You know complacency and uh you know feeling stuck is I think one of the worst feelings in life. Oh yeah.

Master Gurgel: 20:34

If you want to uh too older just stop learning something. And jujitsu is like you know I have a sentiment that I really love is that nobody's good enough in Jiu Jitsu. Because there's always something that you need to learn in some aspects. You can do that analogy for life you know how can you pretend to be uh a person that knows everything it's it's so it's so stupid. So in Jiu Jitsu is exactly the same there's no way for someone knows all the techniques that have been created for so many people you know so you you can be uh you know the toughest guy in the room okay you can but it doesn't mean you that Bushesha knows all the techniques you know so uh yeah I think you uh to the humbling life you know that's one of the most good things. Yeah yeah I I I would agree I um thanks so much for for the insights on that I know we kind of went into a topic there but one of the things I want to uh make sure I take advantage of during this conversation is uh because I think it's important uh for us who are practicing now to understand you know some of the uh the pioneers and and and the people who have came before and been such a big influence who were your biggest influencers um when you were coming up well look uh I think I had had the I was lucky enough to to to leave close by when Jaccar over this first one right so that's it's just lucky I was there right and then uh again the jiu jitsu I introduced for the best possible and when I say that is because Jacaret was someone that was raised together with the family but he was not a member of the family right so uh he was very close to to Paul Gracie of course was his his his master but also very close to Castle Grace and very close to Dex of Gracie uh after all this passed away so we got all the influence from the Gracie family in our school right so Jacaret I would say that he is a bland of all these sources right from the very beginning right and uh so and that with that said uh of course Richard was uh the the biggest uh influence uh for me outside of my academy because he was the the top right in the time and I think he's he continued to be until he stopped um holes was the biggest influence that that I have through master jaccaré because I heard so many stories about holes you know and I I really believe the Alliance is the continuity of his legacy that's how we we stand and you know that's that's something that is really important to us. I had Coxon as a you know uh one that I look up to in order to be the best coach because uh is definitely the best coach if it's ever had uh and I saw him coaching his students while I was competing against them and then I had the the pleasure to to be one of his students during the preparation of the 4291 against so we spent like six eight months training every day uh under his guidance and it was an unbelievable uh inscrible experience really so I think that those those people were the the the biggest influence in in my for sure yeah and those are some pretty big influencers um and I uh again I just think it's important for so so caffeinated jujitsu one of the reasons I I started this uh podcast uh master grizel is just because coming into jujitsu it can be a little overwhelming and you know understanding the history and uh just uh everything that you're you you're exposed to uh early on so when I when I started doing this and what I was focusing on or hoping to focus on with those of us who are kind of early in our jujitsu journey so to speak and um again understanding your past understanding uh the influence that it's had and and on where we are I think it just helps you know us as as kind of torch bearers and so on and so forth. So thank you so much for for sharing that um I want to I want to talk uh we're definitely going to talk about alliance and in early days and establishment but uh one of the things in reading your book I you give a really good insight to you uh competition mindsets things like that um so I want to I want to take a few moments and talk about that uh you mentioned in your book uh I hope I got this right one of your first uh victories was the lightning bolt cup um so if you could uh maybe start talking a little bit about the early days of competing and uh kind of your experience in in competition and and really how how do you feel competition reveals uh maybe reveals uh things about uh practitioners that maybe general training doesn't so I know it's kind of a lot but yeah if you could just share a little bit there uh I think when uh I think my background before Star Jiu Jitsu uh you know my parents always incentivize me to compete in every sport um I do so I I did you know many sports before I started 14 years old and then uh of course it was natural for me to go into a competition but when you go for a competition in the mortal one it's different you know it's it's uh it's not it's not the same thing as you go for a competition in soccer for example where you have a bunch of people so you what they are loan and all the all the things gonna happen uh to you and all the gonna good the good things needs to come from you right so I think uh this is a very important thing and people that uh you know compete in sushi so can feel that power and that capacity that competition brings to you you know so that's the first aspect so when it's far competing uh as I said before the competition was were pretty small so we knew basically everybody uh all the degrees infirmity was involved uh had his academy cardin's grace uh just took over uh Hall's academy and start his own academy college gracie show before Gracie Baja uh Jacqueline was baseball because we were a small group of people but with a lot of quality and uh started to create some noise in the very beginning of the of our academy and then we have the Gracie the Gracie Academy uh originally from Ed Gracie and and then of course his unit and all these guys uh so that was the the the you know the the the big picture of the competition and then you have a lot of academies you know that and that's how Jiu Jitsu is it's funny because when you see people complaining about all these separations you know and and the academy breaks you know and I think that's that happened since the beginning even even inside the Gracie family when Carso moved to to to his own academy he was a already a broke up with the Gracie Institutional Academy you know and that thing kept going for so many years to the point that we are now with you know thousands of academies uh competing you know so that's what that's what they see and and uh and we we were always incentivized by Jacaret to you know to show up and compete and try our best and in my point of view competition is just okay I know the techniques I go there with some some plan and try to do what I do best and when you say I go there to try to do what I do best means that you should hide everything that you don't do well. You know so that's what competition is all about. Can I put my plan you know in action and hide all my weakness if you are able to do that you're gonna probably win. You know and every time you go to a competition is a new opportunity for you to try to to get a best strategy and uh you know maybe choose the best techniques and and try to apply so that it's simple as that and in order to do that you need to control your emotions and that's what I think is the if if not the biggest is one of them you know uh reason why people should compete because if you're not able to control your emotions means that you're gonna be slave of your vice and that's you know that is really bad for your life you know you're gonna be slave of your passions or I'm gonna do it because I want to you know it's but the thing is competition shows you that you don't do what you want you do what you're you know able to right and yeah so that's that's how I think competition should be understood. Yeah I I I love that and I um when my very first competition um I you know obviously I was nervous uh two strike white belt it was IBJJF open here in it in Atlanta and I was you know sharing some of my concerns with Professor Maciel and you know he he positioned it in a way I think that that helped me out a lot and that was um look this is your first competition ever at anything in in your life and that that that regardless of the outcome this is going to be a 100% win and that you're gonna learn and you know I wonder if you kind of feel that that same way around those who are just starting to compete uh in in jujitsu and and how they should view winning and losing is it learning is is it something to kind of help control the pressure what do you what are your thoughts on uh new competitors who have never competed you know I think Master Carlos Gracie has a uh a say that's very true you know in jiu jitsu you never lose either you win or you win that's very true but I would say for the young competitors that you can go to a competition with two minds the first one is surviving or I'm going and going to compete and freaking out you know I'm very nervous I'm afraid I'm full of fear but I'm going anyway which is very important so courage aspect you know you are facing your fears and that's very positive and then you go there and then you start a fight and you are just thinking about surviving surviving surviving and timing and solving all just one minute left oh I did it right so your survived mode uh was successful complete the other aspect which is I try to make my students understand is that okay you can go there and try to apply you know and try to impose what you want and try to really win the fight if you do that you're gonna of course be way more focused on technique than in your emotions because if you want to really apply that that mindset you need to have a this plan in place. What are we gonna do in order to apply that you know your will oh I need to hold the call I need to ensure my life I need to you know whatever you need to plan into your plan is to win it doesn't mean that you're gonna win right but when you finish independently of the outcome you you learn but that is a different learning when you have that mindset of doing things and not just uh I say resisting. You know I'm I'm there to and that of course this is a transition as well you can you can compete in the first time and don't be able to get that level don't be able to to control your emotions that well and and get that that first mode of surviving it's totally fine. But you go for the second one and say no okay now I know that this is not the end of the war. I've been there before right I have lost a couple fights it didn't change anything in my life so let me try to do something else in order to to create a chance for me to win you know and and then it just changed the boat and start getting the best of the competition. So I think it's important for people to understand that it's just two you know ways of thinking when you go to yeah yeah I remember when I was thinking about competing I was really on the fence about um I usually hear about this uh competitor this uh how do I want to say this uh competitor and hobbyist kind of mindset and subset I look at them from my perspective as they're intertwined because I'm both but um do do you feel like uh Master Grigell that that it's important for practitioners to have at least some exposure to competition in jujitsu I think that's a it's a beneficial it's beneficial for sure it's not that people have to but if they put themselves in that situation they're gonna learn a lot of things they're gonna evolve and and that's that's the main thing right when you jiu what you're doing is you're trying to to to create some revolution for you and uh I think competition spill up that process you know you're definitely uh gonna need that gonna learn a lot of important things uh as we mentioned before the emotional control and you know uh all the pains and be able to to apply the techniques uh in uh you know chaotic scenario uh because it's different when you go for you you apply techniques to an academy in that for a moment that you know and you are comfortable and then you go to a competition it's a different thing people screaming you know the the the the venue is quite big you know so the air is different your opponents really trying really hard you know don't allow you to do techniques and the opponents act in the different way that your partners in the academy act so it's all different things that you need to to be able to control and uh when you get that point what you're learning fundamentally is to adapt yourself to adapt yourself to the situations that you didn't predict before and this is very very powerful.

Host: 38:02

Yeah I I I couldn't agree more and um I I so last year I didn't compete uh at all uh this year I have a few that I'm scheduling and I I do I get something out of it every time and uh you know my peers and peer groups that are on the maps with me say the same thing. Um if you're okay with it uh Master Gruciel I'd like to kind of transition now and talk a little bit about uh you know team building creating team culture and the community of jiu jitsu but also uh you know the beloved alliance and and the kind of formulation creation maybe some of the early days there um one of the things that I loved uh about Alliance uh so I I had been training at a academy for about six months um before I I moved into alliance uh I was a two-stripe white belt when I started and I remember my very first role uh with with uh Professor Maciel uh I was trying everything I even tried to wrist block him and it was the worst experience of my my life he just kind of laughed me off but um one of the things that I loved and that fell in love with is the structure and the focus on establishing your fundamentals and proving yourself in the fundamentals first and so many academies uh I think sometimes miss that and and I love I you know the academy I trained at then and this is not talking bad about them but the very first uh jujitsu technique I learned was some kind of X guard transitional sweep and I I didn't even know how to establish grips right the yeah so uh you know what first I would love to learn you know um you know what what kind of led you and and and Master uh Jacques Aure to to form alliance and then uh What was the mindset behind uh the structure and the testing and the stripe system, how it's, you know, a certain amount. Am I being clear my question?

Master Gurgel: 40:11

Absolutely. Absolutely. I think that's a very important topic, you know, to talk about. Uh first, Alliance was created to be uh the best competition team we could be. And the reason was because my students, I got my black belt uh from Master Jacaré, it was very first. And then I opened my own gym, and my students started to fight against Shakare students and against Shiji students on the tournaments, you know, and I I saw myself in the in the opposite side of Master Jacaré, you know, screaming to my students against his students, which were my training partners, because I was still his students, I and I will be to the day of die. So uh I looked to that scene and said, come on, this it just don't make any sense. You know, I don't want to be against my master in any aspect, right? And she felt the same. And a lot of people that were with us in that time, you know, uh understood that the best way to do it it would be like, okay, let's create one brand only that we all can compete under. Right? So we create an alliance with that idea of, okay, we're gonna be together, you know, no matter what. We don't compete against each other. And uh so time passed, and we realized that alliance, in order to stay alive and take the same idea, we need to create a better structure. You know, we need to become a company and you know, take care of the academies and help our structors, you know, and in the end of the day, create a better environment for our students. Right? And uh I'm I'm trying to, you know, to throw the history for four years in a couple of minutes, but uh but and then what happened was that people were spreading out and opened academies all over the world uh using the alliance name because they were part of the team. And we realized that at some point we uh we were losing the control, right? So people are doing whatever they want and just bring the guys to compete. And somehow it was creating a damage, you know. It was very small in that time, but could be something much bigger, you know. And then we decided to start, okay, we need to really standardize the way we teach. And and then we create our methodology because juiz didn't have one. The only methodology that was in Jiu Jitsu at that time was the grace curriculum from self-defense, 36 classes or private classes only. Right? So that's that was the base in how you should learn Jiu-Jitsu from scratch. So if you don't know nothing, you're gonna start learning those techniques. But those techniques require a structure to teach you. You cannot put two beginners to do a technique with one each other because they're gonna get hurt. They don't know how to fall, they they don't know you know how to behave uh as an attacker. How can you so we that system need a professional to teach to the student? And we we figured out that okay, this is not possible. That's why people are not doing what happened in the academies, they go, they do the warm-up, they show one, two, three techniques maybe, and put the students to go. That's the structure that was you know forcing to read it, I would say. Because people could not do uh the uh with the group. So what was our job? How can I create a system that refer Jiu Jitsu for the group with uh instructor? What you need to learn the day one, day two, day three, and then what you should know as a beginner and where where you are able to start really sparring and trying the techniques that you know, you don't you don't start jujitsu and go straight to the road because you don't know nothing. So two possibilities. The first, you're gonna get hurt. The second, uh, even though you are very tough and had a lot of fun, you don't understand the thing. So you are mostly fighting instead of doing jujitsu. So then we separate the levels and you create a very solid fundamental program. You know, and then we see our academies start to multiply the number of students because them green jiu-jitsu there was very friendly for the beginners. You know, and if if we travel back to the time where we started the methodology, it's our methodology starting 25 years now. It was a time when competition uh and performance were the only things that matter for telling you if your academy was good or not. Okay, so the environment of the academies were very, very rough. Or imagine you you, as a white bell, 40 years old, walking in the academy, where just professionals were training, you know, to pick up each other and go to the competition. There was a scene. All right. So the result of that was that the academies were shrinking. Because it was, you know, I think it was very hard and unfriendly for the beginners to start researching that time. Then we created a methodology and start inviting the the students and welcoming them. And it changed the game. And then the methodology started to evolve. So we are 25 years evolving our methodology. Every year we update the methodology and we review all into and we add more to matches and different levels. And so it goes to from the toddlers to the high-end black belt competitors uh training in a system that works, you know, and uh and now Alliance has over 50,000 students uh globally, you know. So it's not it's unquestionable. So sometimes people, oh no, but I my my my white belt wants to roll. Stick them off. Who's your white belt? You know, imagine that you were the guy that you know go to, let's say, uh law university, and then you go there and say, you know what, I want to do the speech in front of everybody to defend that cause. Come on. It's not you that's gonna choose how you're gonna learn, right? This is the institutional thing. The institution is gonna say, oh, this is our program. You need to follow that program in order to graduate, you know, and and be a professional lawyer. And the same thing in jiu-jitsu. They shouldn't, they don't want to say you what what they want to do. They want to go there and get a structure and a system that they can follow. And if they follow, they need to get the reward for following your system, which is in jiu-jitsu the graduation. So if you if you go back in time, the graduation system in jiu-jitsu was nothing. There wasn't. It was like, okay, the instructors are watching you and you are performing well, and then out of nowhere, your instructors call you and give you a belt. Yeah. And then they change and say, look, I'm gonna do that in the end of the year. Which is even worse. Because if you if you graduate your student in the end of the year, no matter what, means that you have no qualification whatsoever because you are just randomly giving belts uh uh for students that sometimes train it very hard, sometimes training nothing. Yeah.

Host: 49:29

Yeah, I I think what uh what I see or have seen again, just from my perspective, is with the with the structure that's been created in Alliance, is it allows for Alliance Academies to feel like home for both the hobbyist and the competitor, right?

Speaker 2: 49:49

Absolutely.

Host: 49:49

And and no, there's no separation there. There's no like this side of the mat is training for you know all of these different competitions, and these are our star players, and you're just here to train. No, it's it it's a sense of community, even though, right, every every academy does have kind of their hardcore competitors and things like that. Uh, and also what I have found, again, I mentioned that I travel a good bit in my training uh with other schools, it's is the the the the level of the just the the fundamentals, the scissor sweep from guard, the flower sweep, the proper grips, understanding when you grab a cross collar versus uh uh you know regular collar grip or what have you. Like just having that base has helped me uh in my performance when training with partners who aren't in my you know specific school or what have you. And uh I love that I've had that exposure early on in my in my jujitsu journey. Um I know we're coming uh kind of at the top of the hour. I hope you can spend maybe another 15 or 20 minutes with me if you have it. Uh it want to check on time. It's it just got a couple more things. Is are you able to to hang around, uh, Master Gris?

Master Gurgel: 51:07

Of course. Let's go, let's go, Joe.

Host: 51:09

Good, good. So just continuing on with this this kind of uh team culture. Uh in in the introduction, I I mentioned that that you you you're kind of known for your business acumen as well. How do you balance um you know uh building structure or well it's not about building out evolving the structure uh within Alliance to continue producing these multi-championships? You've already reached your goal uh as as a founder is to having the most championships of all time and most successful competing uh team, but how do you balance continuing that structure with creativity, keeping up with the the the trends and things like that? Is there a certain methodology that you that you mentally use, or is it just sticking to what you know works? Um say that's I know that's a big question.

Master Gurgel: 52:06

But I I wouldn't say that's a methodology. I think that's more the way I see things. Uh I don't like to be uh stuck in anything. I really believe that jujitsu can take us to a very different places, you know, because I really see jujitsu as a tool for you know you to develop your futures. And filter is something that people should search for since the beginning of the humanity, right? That's what we are searching for, be a better better human being. Uh and uh I think jujitsu really helps. So with that said, means okay, I have a successful academy, but what's next? Oh, I want to create the most successful team. Uh oh, very good. What's next? So now I want to reach more people and bring more people to Jiu-Jitsu with their understanding. And how can we do that? And it goes to, you know, to the very fundamental thing. If you want to go big, you need to learn how to share. Because you cannot go big alone, right? So you need to get people involved in your dreams and make your dreams become their dreams as well. Right? If you are not able to do that, you are not a leader. You know, you are maybe a boss, but then it's when you're a boss, and you can be a boss and be a successful boss. But the problem is the guy that sends you uh because the hierarchy is saying that, you know, he's on top of him for some, you know, from that moment at least. Uh he's not inspired by you. So it means that in every opportunity he has, he's gonna step out and do his own thing. Right? So my goal is how can I create a culture in Alliance that Alliance really belongs to everybody that wants to. You know, so it's creating opportunities. Well, when I look to my students and where they are now, they are all doing very good in their lives, doing, you know, continuing to contribute to the growth, to the growth alliance. You know, we're all together, they are very successful. Uh so that that's what I believe is a culture, you know, when you create something that people can really feel that they belong. And and and so trying to answer your question in a I would say more practical way is you need to create new challenges so you can move on and bring people together with you. You know, and uh and if you get stuck in one academy, for example, how how how many people can you do inside your academy? It's gonna be very limited.

Speaker 2: 55:19

Yeah.

Master Gurgel: 55:20

So I think that's a very important part of the business, but you know, it should be temporary. And what what I see people doing, they they get the academy as an end. You know, so they build the academy and they stick with the academy forever. So they don't share, they don't promote anybody, they they they don't move off to a different role. So it means that they start getting old and the academy starts to decrease to the point that it fades away. You know, that's why I'm seeing Jiu-Jitsu right now. You know, my generation, when you look to my generation, you're gonna see that most of the people that were changed in that time, they are not doing jujitsu anymore.

Speaker 2: 56:13

Yeah.

Master Gurgel: 56:13

And why so? Because they didn't create anything that pushed them upward and create more space for people that were coming from the bottom.

Speaker 2: 56:24

Right.

Master Gurgel: 56:25

You know. So that's what I'm trying to do with my life, you know, and with my business. It's working well so far.

Host: 56:32

Yeah, yeah, to avoid uh avoid stalemates. I mean, stalemates and and and complacency and things like that. I mean, that's the I think that's the death of any any business. I remember going through an executive, my executive MBA course, and we had to build this, uh, partner with this company in Panama, and and that was one of the things that that one of the outcomes that that we learned is that the the killer to any business or I would say anything in in life is complacency. Uh kind of the last uh subject here, uh Master Grisel, that I want to talk about is is jujitsu in the future of it. And I think your insight would be invaluable, would be you know priceless here. Uh I'm a father of five, right? My legacy continues on in my children. Um, so that's kind of where I want to start. Uh and I would imagine someone uh in a position as yourself as uh kind of a business leader in jiu-jitsu. Uh what do you see uh positive trends, negative trends when it comes to kids in jiu-jitsu, right? Um the time they start to maybe the time they would qualify for adult classes or what have you. Do you do you see it in a positive trend that that more uh kids are coming to jujitsu, that these are going to be the you know, the kind of future of jujitsu? And what positives and negatives do you see?

Master Gurgel: 57:55

I don't see any negatives. I think that jujitsu is growing uh uh you know in ground with this program. Again, again it is really needs to structure the the kids because again, if you don't have a program, uh how can you teach a teenage with five years old together with a teenage ten years old? They have a different comprehension, you know, they have different capacity in terms of you know uh what they can do with their bodies, you know, and so all the ages are different. So we need to structure them in the way that they really get what they need in that phase of life. So uh but I think the ends are doing really well in that sense. So that's why uh the kids' programs are growing really, really fast. Uh I mentioned you uh before that we just opened our academy in Hanato Leech uh four months ago, then 60% of our students are kids. You know, so uh I think uh it it shows that jujitsu future is kind of safe, you know, at least for a few years. Uh but talking about the future, as you mentioned, uh, I think jujitsu is still in the US are still very important, you know, and uh I think this is just uh scratch the surface. I think what when jujitsu really getting to the people uh minds, not just as a sport, right, but as a tool for shelf development, it's gonna take a different, you know, proportion. You know, that that's how we see jujitsu in the future. I mean the sport for the leaders, you know, because Yeah, they're gonna really, you know, uh understand themselves better. They're gonna, you know, learn how to deal with the limits and the emotions and and all that. So that's what's happening in Brazil right now, and everything that happens in Brazil comes to the US a little late because that's why it's starting, right? And I'm not saying that uh I think US is gonna be bigger in terms of competition if it's not already, right? But I think that what we do in Brazil usually uh comes to the US two years later, and that's why it's happening in Brazil now. So I think it's gonna happen also in in the US. Uh we need more voices uh to get to that point. You know, more people understanding the benefits of YouTube, so they didn't explain uh to the general public what it's all about.

Host: 1:01:01

Yeah, and that's again uh so reassuring uh to hear that you don't see any negatives when it comes to uh you know the the the future and in and young practitioners. How do you feel uh about social media's impact uh to jujitsu? It's obviously uh I don't think there's any getting around the fact that it's helped it grow and become more mainstream. Uh, but do you see any any negative impacts there?

Master Gurgel: 1:01:31

Uh of course I see a lot of uh bad you know bad things about social media in general. It's not it's not just jujitsu. Yeah, jiu-jitsu is it's just another thing. Um but I really believe that people that get involved in jiu-jitsu have uh less time to spend you know in social media because they're doing real things and they start to get the benefits of doing real things. And so they're not really attached to you know to the imaginary world, which is the social media, what social media provides. So uh yeah, real occasion is gonna take them out of social media at least. Uh in uh in that version that we are afraid of, which stick version where you just get addicted to that dopamine, you know, and and you you don't stop scrolling because you are just addicted. You know? Uh so the dopamine that she should provide space stronger. You know, it's something that you're doing with your body, you know, mind your presence that you know cannot think about something else. So you need to be in that moment to to really do sus, you know. Uh and of course, uh uh I I understand there's a challenge for all the parents to, you know, to balance that. But it's definitely susjits you can help, you know, and uh to put kids to do activities and you know, get out of the social media, which I don't know is gonna last for very long, to be honest. I think people are are moving back you know in in some ways to to don't get too much attracted because people that are gonna succeed are the ones that won't get attached to those those tools, you know, and and if that happened, uh I think we're gonna see in no time the degrees of his addiction. Um that would be uh a good thing.

Host: 1:03:41

Yeah, I I think that uh yeah, I definitely think there's there's positives and negatives. Uh one thing I try so I I do a lot of kind of self-study myself. Um I do watch BJJ Fanatics instructors. I have Marcelo Garcia's uh a few of his instructions, and of course I think I have all uh a lot of uh But do you do agree that that's a different thing, right?

Master Gurgel: 1:04:03

When you go out there and use the platforms uh to study, there's so so many uh value content out there, you know. You of course you should use all the technology. It's not what we're talking about, right? We're talking about trolling to get some dopamine and see what other people are doing, and you know, we without really going deep in anything, right? So when you sit down with your kids and say, look, let's study Marcelo Garcia's butterfly square. Man, come on. You are studying you know, uh some of the the best players that Jiu Jabber produced, so it's something good. So you can see it say, look, let's sit down and and see these guys talking about history or philosophy or whatever. You are using the technology and and somehow the social media to help you all in getting knowledge for your kids. So that's totally fine.

Host: 1:05:01

Yeah, I love the way you put that, right? It's like uh, you know, to get real education, you go to the colleges or the university, not someone, you know, kind of peddling or or selling something off the street, right? The the over here guy, right? Um no, I I I do. I think there's positives and negatives, and I think there's very it's very the point you made about um being uh you know very specific where you get your self-education from and making sure it's from a valid resource. And um I mean, watching Marcelo Garcia is is completely different than watching someone on Instagram, right? Absolutely, absolutely.

Master Gurgel: 1:05:39

The Instagram's like, okay, you are you are watching someone explaining uh maybe you know a 90 seconds video continually long, you know? So yeah, you have bet better better sources to such.

Host: 1:05:55

Yeah, yeah, I I would agree. Um, kind of last question here, uh, Master Burger. I know you you probably got to get going. Um do you feel, and I don't mean to put you on the spot here, uh, do you feel that that jujitsu is losing anything as it goes towards its future? Is there something that we need to pay attention to, or or maybe instructors in the black belt community need to pay attention to?

Master Gurgel: 1:06:19

Uh absolutely. I think I think we uh we if you if you if you are instructor and you you you honest person, you know that we lose students every day. Right? So you lose students in your academy and you lose students in your academy for a reason. And that reason needs to be studied and fixed. Right? So uh I think uh instructors need to be that as communicators, they need to understand jujitsu uh in a deep sense so they can really uh explain uh people that don't know what jujitsu is and uh and and somehow convince them to try. And after they try, you have to be able to keep them doing uh through a very strong methodology and system that make them understand and fall involved with it. So it's it's that's not uh uh a game that you know is 100% certain that they're gonna win. So and nothing is, right? So we we need to keep track of uh ourselves alert and evolving. Uh yes, there are a lot of things that Jiu-Jitsu Stuff can um you know, can develop and do better. I have no doubt about it. You know, that's what I'm trying to do in my work to inspire people to, you know, look for a different angle and see how can Jiu Sitsu help people in their lives independently if they they are competitors or not. Competition is a very small portion of everything. I would say that's less than 5% of Jiu Shitsu practitioners around the world competing. You know, so what are we doing with the Oregon 95?

Speaker 2: 1:08:31

Yeah.

Host: 1:08:32

I love that that the point you made about um there's some onus on instructors and kind of cultivating that love and desire to continue after that first day or that trial few days or what have you, right? Through communication, right? That like I mean, companies, uh some of the most successful companies, they'll tell you, and some of the most successful CEOs that that over-communicating sometimes it's a win-win. Lack of communication kills everything.

Master Gurgel: 1:09:06

The good thing, Joe, the the good thing is as anything else, uh Jiu Jitsu is a business. And if you don't do well your job, someone will. And if you're not a good instructor, uh and it means the whole package is not just, you know, technically speaking, you know, but if you don't take care of your students, if you don't make them evolve, if you don't spare them, you're gonna lose that. And I think the good schools will take over, right? And the bad instructors will leave. And that's how you know market works, right? Just the best, gonna survive long time. So it's better if you are just an instructor. You better watch out, you know, and start studying and you know, instructor your academy in a way that your students will be very happy.

Host: 1:10:13

Yeah. Well, Master Grigell, thank you so much for your time um and for doing this and having the conversation. I hope I get out to California in your area, as we say here in Georgia, your neck of the woods. I hope uh we get to meet face to face. Um, but again, thank you so much. I'm excited to share this. And um thank you.

Master Gurgel: 1:10:35

Thank you very much. It was a pleasure to talk to you and hope the audience takes some uh you know, some good uh uh I would say, you know, takeaways from this conversation and get that school better and have more fun doing the video. Thank you very much.